pgmfi.org

Hacking up Honda's ECU
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:43 pm 
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Posts: 1054
I'm sick. I'm sick of capitalism.

I know that lot of people, including myself, put endless number of hours developing softwares for the pgmfi.org. Waht we see now ?

1. Hondata that seems to have taken something from us (not proven yet)
2. Developpers asking money for their softwares (no hard feelings here guys)
3. People are less willing to share information, and let others find it by themselves so they can keep the missing link a "secret".
4. Some others have some really neet software that are not available for public, although they all emerged from reading pgmfi's wiki/forum.


FUCK. Why not share fucking everything, and never ask money, or simply ask for donation ? What about the evil others that steal our ideas ?

What is our purpose then ? Yes I know, eventhough some coders have fee versions for their software, it is still LOT MORE cheaper than any standalone or Hondata system. And Honda tuning is now accessible to almost any fucking geek on earth. But still...

It seems that money HAS to be involved, which isn't true. Did money accelerated the development of free information/software ???? I don't think so. If money was not involved, then nobody would have anything to loose.


If you use pgmfi, then everything should be free and shared or stay in your corner, don't tell anyone and die.


I'm not ranting to anyone here. I respect everybody here and totally understand how decisions are made. So please, don't flame me, and simply put your opinion here.

What do you think ? Where are we going ? Should we make ONE software called PGMFI that will be made of all the best of all available programs here ? Why not ?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:48 pm 
A unified program capable of working OBD0 and OBD1 (and be extensible for OBD2 etc) with a good plugin interface and built in datalogging would be amazing, but would it ever come together?

The 2 lead OBD1 coders couldnt get along, whats to say people from different families will?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:09 am
Posts: 4380
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
I lead by example.
My work on the OBD0 stuff is open source, on sourceforge.
My work on the OBD1 stuff is open source, on sourceforge.
*shrug*
we've been round and round with this before and quite honestly I don't have anything more to say other than "I'm going to go write some code"


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:13 pm 
Anyone who cant get along that's their problem/ego. Picking sides would be like picking religion.I've learned sooo much from both of these sights.(and many others) you must keep a open mind ! learn and share alike. :P


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:05 pm 
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Posts: 518
People like taking credit for whatever work they've done.

Imagine if someone just came up with a simple UI, and allowed the editing of OBD0 and OBD1 roms. You set up teams, and those teams cover a certain code base. We'd have direct support of probably every ROM and editors with very little bugs because you'd have people double checking your work and brain storming to come up with the best solutions.

Then charge $50 for the software, tons of people will buy it, and the money would go into the pgmfi.org account for purchasing materials and things of that sort. hell, assume there are 5 teams. take the $50, divide it by 5 and each team gets $10 per purchase. From there they decide what to do with the money.

One big problem is that people feel under appreciated which makes them limit their contributions and just work for themselves. When this happens there is no checks and balance system which creates massive bugs and things that could easily be fixed but are often over looked.

I know Blundar has been talking about an open source editor for a long time, but this might be enough to fuel the fire. Who knows, you already have a few editors that you can script and things of the sort so it makes it hard to start fresh when you already have something in progress.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:34 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:42 am
Posts: 746
Location: Daytons 4G Turbo Civic
i do agree with Synoptic!!

there should be more congregation...
PGMFI.org IS and better always BE the FREE BOOT to kick other companies ass like Ho*data and others that we have seen, come and capitalize over all of us...
what difference do they have over us?? just some more developers and coders that have the time to waste around.... we all have lives, and bills to pay and have other shit going on besided our love to Work in the inner guts of the Honda ECU

and yes, i would love to see a software called PGMFI.org wich will be able to incorporate for example TE, Uberdata, and stuff all in one, as plugins

and to help the cause!!!
FREE BABY!!
Image
Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:21 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:45 am
Posts: 107
Well, I'm going to promote my own editor (TuneToy) here, since I also believe in free (as in open) software.

Since I love to mess with my engine, and I like to understand what's going on inside, the same goes for my ECU (since, in modern cars, it's an integral part of the engine).

So that's why I became interested in pgmfi.org. Since I have a lot of experience with designing and writing software (started developing software about 17 years ago), I wanted to contribute back.

The PJRE project seemed interesting (because I like Java (NO, IT'S NOT SLOW :D)), but was pretty much dead. At the time, I was experimenting with the Eclipse RCP (another great open source product), and decided to use that as a base for my own editor. Started a project on sourceforge.net ...

With the current code base, you can open, visualize (3d), and edit roms with it (just OBD1 for now, but support for OBD0/2/whatever is modelled in the base).. The GUI parts are pretty rough, but I think the base model is pretty solid.

Anyway, people who like to work on an OPEN rom editor are welcome to join the project. It's there, and you have the choice!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:04 pm 
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BTW, Ecucontrol, The plugin, is open source now. It will be posted on the CVS as soon as dave as some free time.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:10 am
Posts: 421
Location: Eisenstadt/Austria/Europe
3 cause 2.

Why share informations when you can find it a week later as part, plugin or script of a (semi) commercial product?

Doc


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:32 pm 
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Location: Tampa bay, Florida
Because if it's freely available here..

why would someone pay for it?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:03 pm 
Just a thought!

Not everybody is a programmer, an engineer or electronic savvy. The information in this website is tooooo technical for the common race enthusiast.

A software like Honda** or any commercial ECU tuning application provides a portal for those type of guys. The learning curve is way more than 500.00. Believe me!!!! So, they decided to launch that for some good $$$$$$.

A slightly change in their approach will make any legalities away from touch if there is not any patent in place already for the same exact thing. Sorry!

Synoptic, I agree with you a 100% on your third mention. If we would stick together back in 2002 (remember the old yellow forum), we would have the RTP and all the goodies offered already by any vendor nailed down. Then, Hondata would not have anything to sell.

No offence to anybody in this forum but that is the way I felt back then.

Anyway, I think that we've done good! With the information in this forum, I managed myself to run smoothly a B18C with a PR3 (OBD1) that came from a 1.6L. No CEL codes (I am using the necessary sensors and I can select the ones needed), 1.8L tables, my own rev lim, my own VTEC point, FTL/FTS, DataLogging, Shift Light and I am working on a routine for NOS (watch my post sometime soon).

Like me, I am certain that Honda** folks are looking here for some answers too. Most likely they bought the software falling in the category on my first and second paragraph. They all get beat down in the track/street by me or one of my friends that aren't using their software. Smart people know that in order to run fast in the track or street, you got to do it yourself..... the second category.... us!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you guys for everything!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:47 am 
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Have any of you guys ever heard of http://www.racelogic.co.uk? You might want to look at their emulator. Just a FYI


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:04 pm 
without capatalism you wouldnt have a fancy ECU to play with, none of the hardware or software to hack up ECUs, no cars to mess around with.

look at the technological state of the public in united states and USSR in 1988.

where would you rather be?

competition mades everything better, as far as outright stealing. it is wrong. reverse engineering however is a natural and uncontrollable thing. everything is reverse engineered, do you think wal-mart brand shavers didnt take a look at the MACH3 and try and copy it?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:12 pm 
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Posts: 210
This is a subject that hits close to home.

I am trying to make a commerical product that has to do with piggybacks, I have been working on this project for 2 years, some of the knowledge was gained from this forum, nothing specific just the overall workings of automotive electronics.

There is no way that I am going to give away the source code but I still feel that I am obligated to those that have helped me along the way. The only thing that I can do is to offer the product at a price point that is cheap enough that most DIYers would not want to build it and donate some of the money to various boards that have helped me.

Because I am not offering up the source code, I in the same token have never looked at the source code of any project so that %100 of the work is my own. I do offer up some of my own work for free, I have made an encrypted bootloader for the AVR platform that I offer for free along with the source code.

This issue is a slippery slope, I can feel for both sides. I am a very generous guy but somethings you have to keep to yourself, I hope people do not measure me by what I do not disclose but rather by what I do disclose.

I know some guys here are now charging for their ROM editor, but they have offered it for free for the longest time. They offered it for free in return they get alot of people to test out the bugs, everyone wins. Once the bugs have been tested out then it would not be too much to ask that people pay for it, as long as their product offers better value than other commercial products. Sometimes you get married and have kids and now you can not afford to give away your work, or you lose your job and try to turn a hobby into a company.

There are different degrees of greed, 50 dollars for a ROM editor is not bad if the guy who made it did most of the work himself, but if he took a large chunk of the code from an open source project then that crosses the line.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:49 pm 
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Also I would like to add an apology, when I first came here I was a bit abrasive and probally offended a few people, and to them I would like to offer an apology. We are all here to learn and grow, and I have learned quite a bit.

I would like to thank blundar in particular, he is a pretty crafty guy who is always willing to help you out.


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